[00:00:08] Speaker A: You're listening to faith in healthcare, the cmda matters podcast. Here's your host, Dr. Mike chubb.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: Thank you, Jamie. Welcome, friends, to Faith in Healthcare Therapy. Language is everywhere now. It's used to describe a hard week, a difficult job, a sermon that landed wrong.
Well, what happens when the church starts talking that way, too?
My guest today, Dr. Matthew Loftus, sees this from where he practices family medicine in rural Kenya, where he's noticing the same patterns. He's written for the New York Times and Christianity Today.
And his new book is called Resisting Therapy, the Dangers of Pop Psychology and How the Church Can Respond.
He also speaks candidly about his own depression, which gives this particular conversation an honesty that I think you're going to appreciate. So let's dive in.
Well, today on Faith and Healthcare, I'm welcoming from seven time zones away. It's late evening his time, Dr. Matthew Loftus, who's coming to us from Chigorya Hospital in north central Kenya. He's a family physician who grew up in a very large family. And I don't know, maybe that's why eventually, Dr. Loftus, you got focused on mental health because there was a rather large family that you were vying for attention from your parents, 15 kids in Baltimore, Maryland, and that's where you did medical school and family medicine training.
And then together, together with your wife Maggie, moved to south Sudan in 2015. And because that's not a very necessarily stable country, politically moved to a country that I love a lot, where I spent a fair amount of time, which is Kenya and Latane Hospital.
So welcome to our program today.
[00:02:16] Speaker C: Thanks, Mike. It's an honor to be here.
[00:02:17] Speaker B: Dr. Loftus, you reached out to me several months ago and told me about a book project that you were working on.
And given the kind of crazy things that we're facing here in the US when it comes to psychology, psychiatry, your book is very timely and helped me to understand a whole lot better about why we're seeing what we're seeing in our culture today and the challenges that it faces for the church. So for our listeners, Dr. Loftus book coming out in mid August of 2026, resisting therapy, culture, the Dangers of Pop Psychology, and how the church can respond. Well, Dr. Loftus, you're no longer at Latane. You're at Chagorje. What brought about that transition in terms of training and providing family medicine services?
[00:03:05] Speaker C: I love teaching and training, being a part of the family medicine program here, and I love Latane Hospital and working there, being a part of the community there but it was just really tough for our family as our kids, as especially being the only American kids there, having their Kenyan friends go off to boarding school in third grade. And so we moved here to be part of the missionary community and have more support with homeschooling. And I'm grateful that I get to still be a part of family medicine training. I know that teaching and training Africans was a big part of your work for many years too. So, you know, yeah, just how wonderful that work is and I'm grateful God has given us the opportunity to do that.
[00:03:51] Speaker B: Thanks for joining me today. And as I shared before we got going, I had the opportunity four years ago to go visit Latane Hospital where you were. In fact, it was during the time that you were there, even though you weren't at the hospital at that time. And I got to see the most creative utilization of 40 foot metal shipping containers that I've ever seen. And Matthew, I have seen lots of uses of shipping containers over the years. And you had, you together with the leadership of the hospital had turned these two containers parallel, just about 20, 30ft apart, into exam rooms for an outpatient mental health clinic. And I thought, wow. And I wondered what would cause a family physician to develop an outpatient mental health facility in rural Kenya. What led to that?
[00:04:38] Speaker C: Well, I mean, a lot of it was just what the hospital saw as the need from the community. They kind of sat down, they looked at their inpatients one day and they said, well, between the patients here for psychosis, the patients here for suicide attempts, the patients who are here on the surgical service, but, you know, they were either, you know, in a violent altercation or had alcohol abuse problem and got in an accident. Like that's somewhere between a quarter and a third of our inpatients at any given time have some kind of mental health issue.
So they really saw a need to develop that service within the hospital and provide services to the community that people clearly needed.
[00:05:19] Speaker B: There was a paucity of professionals, I have to tell you, of course, of 20 years, I think the most advanced professional we had was a psychiatric nurse.
We did not have psychiatrists or anyone advanced. So I could see the need. And have you done something similar at Chigoriya Mission Hospital in North Central Kenya?
[00:05:39] Speaker C: We've had done some similar things. Really the most successful thing in this here at Chigorya has actually been a church based recovery group, almost like a special service on Sunday mornings. We tried to do some things that were more hospital based. It didn't quite take off the way they didn't let's pain. Some of that just has to do with the changes in health insurance in Kenya. But yeah, really it has been kind of a church focused recovery group for people who struggle with alcohol and other addictions. That's been the most successful and I had a small part in helping kind of get that off the ground and still participate when I can.
[00:06:19] Speaker B: So I'm guessing having read your book, that you've written articles over the years, editorials or pieces on psychiatric illness as a family physician. Is this your first book of this magnitude?
[00:06:34] Speaker C: It is.
[00:06:35] Speaker B: Okay, well, I'm impressed with this first work that you've done. And talk to us just a little bit about how a family physician gets to the place where you're working in Kenya. But you're writing about a very western and in particular an American challenge, which is therapy culture. So the title of the book, Matthew Resisting Therapy Culture. So what is this resistance that you're promoting?
[00:07:01] Speaker C: Honestly, I obviously have friends, other pastors, former missionaries, teachers and family members who are still in the US and spending time on social media. You certainly see things coming across the wire that show off the therapy culture. But even here in Kenya, we're starting to see it just because social media is worldwide, obviously. And one of my Kenyan colleagues actually said, you know, when someone brings up mental health, it's almost like it's sacred.
And, and, and you can't, you can't speak to it, you can't critique it, you can't, sometimes you can't even ask that person to, you know, hold themselves to the same standards as, as other people. And that just sort of like triggered in me the sense of like, oh, wow, like this is not just an American problem, this is a, an spreading everywhere kind of problem.
[00:08:00] Speaker B: So therapy culture, I mean, I've been at CMDA now for 10 years after having left Kenya. And the whole idea that anyone has a bad thought or is struggling a little bit or of course adhd. So many kids now are being given that diagnosis. Just unpack again that so that our listeners understand the nuts and bolts of therapy culture as we see it here
[00:08:26] Speaker C: in the U.S.
yeah, so therapy culture is fundamentally about medicalization.
It's about taking the normal, everyday experiences that we all have and turning them into symptoms of a mental health disorder or evidence that you have a diagnosis. So it's, you know, taking kind of ordinary grief and the sadness we all experience and calling that depression. It's taking normal worry and calling it anxiety, it's taking anything bad, calling it trauma, and then it's judging institutions by their perceived mental health impact. So all of a sudden, you know, schools, churches, whatever, they can't.
If they do something that might be negative from a mental health standpoint or might negatively affect someone's mental health, then all of a sudden that becomes not allowed. And then those things really work together to kind of drain people of their agency, their ability to get better. The more that people think of themselves as sick, disordered or whatever, the more that they live into that diagnosis and the less that they're able to do for themselves.
[00:09:34] Speaker B: So, Matthew, you're very open in the book, so I'm not going to ask you about something you don't talk about in your book, but your own experience with depression. And of course, as a family physician, you're not the first guest I've had on the program over the last eight or nine years.
Who in that situation, a physician who struggled with depression. But how has that shaped your perspective? Do you think you're in this arena of primary care and therapy culture, especially as it's impacted the church?
[00:10:03] Speaker C: Yeah, certainly, I would say my own experience has really refined what I feel about the subject and helped me to not say things that are inflammatory for the sake of being inflammatory or just trying to get attention.
It certainly helped me to see how valuable and life saving therapy and psychiatry can be. Both my own personal experience, but also, of course, my experience taking care of very sick patients and watching them get better with good therapy and careful medication prescribing.
But I've also seen in my own life, in the lives of others, how these lies about how that you can't do it or you can't get better or you should just kind of indulge whatever you need to feel better, call it self care and then, you know, let that, you know, shrink more and more into yourself. Like that is an ever present lie that faces everyone with mental illness to some degree or another.
And but then now that lie is being amplified by therapy culture and especially with social media and different influencers hawking things that are completely at odds with scientific consensus about good mental health treatment.
[00:11:25] Speaker B: What are the risks that you see for pastors in particular, but churches in general, that when churches adopt this therapy culture uncritically and how might impact how pastors take care of their congregations as well as the healthcare professionals in that congregation or in the community are going to care for those congregants who are also patients?
[00:11:48] Speaker C: I think that when churches feel pressure to do for people what therapy does for them, or when pastors feel pressure to Think and talk more like therapists. I think it takes away the distinctives that make the church the church. There's this, you know, with the whole idea of, well, you can't do anything that might negatively impact someone's mental health means that there's this constant pressure to just reframe the truths of Christian life into therapeutic principles. Right. So no. So now sin isn't violating the law of a holy God. Right. It's damaging your relationship. Right. Like, and obviously sin does damage our relationship with God, our relationship with others, but it is also violating the laws of a holy God and, and bringing shame upon us. Right. Inviting God's just judgment. But when, when people feel pressure to, to put everything in therapeutic terms, it just, yeah, takes away some of those distinctives and it turns the church into a therapist's office, which that's not what God designed the church to do.
That's not what pastors or the church are for.
[00:13:06] Speaker B: And certainly would you agree that it makes the whole concept of shame and talking about sin taboo basically, pretty much self actualization, expressive individualism. However you put it in the book and others put it, it seems like that's our right to express who we are, that there should be no shame in expressing who I feel I am.
[00:13:26] Speaker C: Right. And it's not even just making that the idol, as bad as that is, but it's also forcing everything distinctive and true about our faith has to be expressed in terms of self actualization and whatnot, because that's the, you know, when that is the highest value in our culture, then it become then. Now if Christianity doesn't fit within that paradigm, it's, you know, useless.
You know, that's just contorting and distorting Christianity until it means nothing.
[00:14:05] Speaker B: So let's talk about these roles that by leaders in the church, elders, pastors and teachers, and then mental health professionals. Now, before I get to my question, I want to give you some background. In the late 90s at Timwick Hospital in the missionary community, another couple about our age suggested that one of the funnest things they'd ever done with another couple would be to read a book together and work through that book together as two couples. And I was intrigued by the idea and I really enjoyed this couple. So our very first book, Dr. Loftus, was by Larry Crabb, called Connecting, Connecting. And in his first chapter he says, I'm probably committing professional career suicide by writing this book. And the tenet of the book is the church needs to do a whole lot more in terms of interacting with people who are struggling with mental health than it does. Because the church, even in the 90s, shying away, saying this is something that, that mental health professionals need to deal with, we can't possibly touch this. And Larry Crabb, a well known author Christian psychologist, is saying, wait a second, time out. The church has a significant impact. And so we read through this book together and it was really eye opening for me. And of course, you know, you've now been in at least two different missionary communities where you may have no other place to turn other than the body of Christ in that community for help.
But let's talk a little bit about the role of the church and the role of mental health professionals and how each can do its part in a way that's going to help us in this mental health crisis in the West.
[00:15:40] Speaker C: Yeah, that's challenging because I think 30 years ago things were different. Things have certainly changed a lot. And even in Kenya, right, like right now in rural Kenya, I still meet patients who are judged by their churches for having a mental health diagnosis. You know, that, that hear messages about, well, you know, you must not be believing enough. You, you need to be praying more. You don't need these psychiatric medications. And I think 60, 70 years ago that was everywhere in the church. And now we've, we've reacted to that in the west, overreacted to the point now we're where we feel like it has to be everywhere all the time. The therapeutic language. I think it's important to recognize that like when people meet Jesus and when people come to church, right. These are healing environments and these are places where people who are suffering from whatever problem is going on in their life, whether it's a mental health issue or something else entirely, like being in a church that's worshiping God, that's proclaiming the gospel, is, that's fellowshipping, these are all going to be really good things for any person.
But in many cases, I think people whose mental health disorders get better because they're in a good church. They're worshiping God, they're fellowshiping with others, that's a byproduct of a church that's being faithful to its calling.
And when a church tries to do it the other way around and say, well, we're a church, you know, we, we exist to improve people's mental health, that's not what God called you to do.
Right.
Churches obviously aren't supposed to be making these diagnoses. They're not necessarily. I mean, certainly churches could have like a counseling ministry. There's A lot of wonderful churches that do these things that they feel like God has called them to do.
But when a church makes its primary purpose about helping people's mental health get better, they miss the, the much greater and more beautiful mandate that God has given them to proclaim the gospel, to administer the sacraments, to worship, to preach. All those things are things that only the church can do. And so I think we, we got to make sure that the. Where the church is majoring on the things that they're supposed to and then leaving some of the other things for professionals.
[00:18:19] Speaker B: Yeah. I think, Matthew, that when your book comes out and people begin to read it from the church, whether pastors or lay people, they're going to have no problem with your suggestion that the church is primarily about sharing the gospel. But one of the things that you stated early on that I thought I want to see where this goes. Sure. Is that the church is not about fixing people's problems. Now, I'm guessing that not everyone who reads that, ardent Christ followers, is going to necessarily immediately agree with that. But tell our listeners as a preview before they buy the book. What do you mean by that?
[00:18:51] Speaker C: Sure.
I mean, I love fixing problems, right. That's why I became a medical missionary.
I work, I'm sent by a church in America.
We're part of a church here in Kenya that obviously as a hospital. Hospital.
We spend our days fixing people's problems and not just the patients either.
So, yeah, I, I do think that that primary mission of the church is, like I said, right. Proclaiming the gospel, administering the sacraments, worshiping God, preaching the word. Those are things that only the church can do.
And so I think certainly for any one particular local church, this is another. This is a really important distinction. Right. I don't like adding shoulds. One of the, you know, a very popular Christian pastime, especially for people like you and me that write and think and speak is, Is adding lists of shoulds. The church should, the church should, the church should. And that's just a huge. We just adding burdens to individual pastors. And I like that.
The church universal right. Has a lot more responsibilities that God has given us. Right. The whole universal body of believers throughout the world that, you know, we do have, you know, I think collectively more of a responsibility to deal with some of the problems of the world. Right. And the Holy Spirit has empowered us to speak into those things and do things to, to bless others.
But even with that, at the end of the day, we have to remember that ultimately the problems that people bring to us, right? Especially mental health problems are so thorny and so complex that laying the responsibility for getting those better at the but of especially a local church is so it's unfair to that person, it's unfair to that church.
And so we really have to think broadly about all the different ways that we can help people.
And for many, many people who are suffering with mental health disorders, what they need is simply friends. They need to be reminded of the truths of God's word, and they need opportunities to serve others.
And they need fellowship and worship.
[00:21:32] Speaker A: Before we continue with this week's episode, here's a special announcement for you.
Have you ever considered how God might use your healthcare skills around the world?
Join the Global Missions Health conference in Louisville, Kentucky or online on 11-12-14.
Connect with others who share your heart for missions, plus be equipped and inspired to serve wherever Christ calls you around the world.
Learn more at Medicalmissions.com events.
Ladies, reconnect with your husband at the Women Physicians and Dentists in Christ marriage enrichment weekend, January 8th through 10th near Monterey, California.
Learn ways to strengthen your marriage while enjoying time set aside just for the two of you.
Reserve your spot
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From CMDA event recordings to the Faith Prescription Series and other continuing education opportunities, you can explore it all from any device and CMDA members earn CE credits at no cost.
Visit CMDA.org learningcenter to get started.
CMDA has a special October offer for you.
For a gift of any amount, CMDA will send a free copy of Scott Klusendorf's book the Case for Equipping Christians to Engage the Culture.
To take advantage of this special offer, visit CMDA.org October and we will send this book out to you as soon as possible.
Let's jump right back into this week's episode.
[00:23:33] Speaker B: As you were talking, I took myself back 10 or 20 years and just thought about the blessing that it is for you to work in the scenario where you're working. Because you do have the freedom at Chagorje and at Latane and elsewhere there in Kenya to actually talk about spiritual problems with patients.
[00:23:49] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:23:50] Speaker B: And recognize that in the States.
I wish it were so. I wish that every single CMDA member, a constituent, every single Christ follower who was in mental health felt that they had the ability, when appropriate, to bring up spiritual issues. But how often are you, as you're seeing mental health, those with mental health problems in Kenya? How often are you playing the role of pastor, teacher, and talking about spiritual challenges that they're facing.
[00:24:18] Speaker C: I would say that I try with my mental health patients to explore the spiritual dimensions of whatever it is that they are experiencing. I mean, for many patients, they just kind of tell me, right. Right up front, like, yeah, my pastor doesn't believe depression is a real illness or what have you. Or their family brings them in because they're, you know, they're like, this person keeps waking us up at 2 in the morning to pray and sing worship songs. And now I really don't.
You know, it's. It's making me not like the church. It's making me not like worship songs. This person's not.
[00:24:54] Speaker B: It's not a Philippian. It's not a Philippian jailer experience, right?
[00:24:57] Speaker C: No, it is not exactly. So that is, you know, so that's something that sometimes comes to the fore.
I do pray with my patients whenever I, you know, sense that that is a helpful thing to do whenever I feel the Holy Spirit leading me. And I'm very grateful for all the CMDA resources that have helped shape my understanding, you know, like the faith prescriptions and whatnot over the years, healing, you know, we had.
I'm gosh, old enough now to have watched the VHS tapes of saline solution back in the day.
[00:25:34] Speaker B: Well, thanks for that promo. We now have, what's the international saline process witness training going on. And I'd love to get more mental health professionals in that.
So how can Christian healthcare professionals like you, do you meet with pastors and talk to them and give them some insight on. On. Beyond what line? I realize the line's probably kind of fuzzy, but beyond what line should they say? These are individuals that really need professional mental health intervention and so send them off once they get here. What do you tell pastors?
[00:26:10] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think pastors. And this applies anywhere in the world, right? If someone in your congregation seems to be really, you know, their. Their experience of depressive thoughts, anxiety, traumatic memories are getting to the point where they are really keeping that person from living their best life, where it seems to be really dragging them down. And that person has tried to overcome it on their own with support, with prayer, even with meeting with you. You know, you sense that. That, like they are just so immersed in these lies that they can't ever really catch their breath. That's the time when professional help is needed.
And yeah, I think that that's. And of course, you know, and then for more severe symptoms, things like hallucinations, total inability to sleep or only sleeping two or three Hours a night, those kinds of things, more severe symptoms. That's also, I think, an instant trigger. But I also want to be, you know, I want to be careful because there is an aspect of therapy culture that says, well, pastors, once something becomes a mental health issue, now a pastor can't say anything or. Or do anything. Right. Like, it's. It's all got to be the professionals from that point on. And I don't. And I think that that's also an unhealthy overreaction as well. It's something that has to, you know, it's something where even with professional care, someone still needs that guidance, that love, that encouragement, that fellowship that a church offers. And so I never want it to. To sound like, well, just because this person needs professional help doesn't mean that they need pastoral care anymore, if that makes sense.
[00:28:09] Speaker B: Yeah. And I appreciated multiple times you cycling back to the whole idea of suffering.
And you mentioned something I'd never heard of before, the Baconian project or something. Am I mispronouncing that?
[00:28:23] Speaker C: No, that's. Yeah.
[00:28:25] Speaker B: In which our goals, especially in medicine, healthcare, but really in all of life, is to eliminate all suffering. And yet, obviously we have a faith that has significant. A lot to say. The Bible says a lot about suffering and its purpose in our lives. Talk to us just a little bit about therapy culture and its crusade against suffering.
[00:28:45] Speaker C: Yeah. So I think therapy culture really wants to tell people that any kind of suffering must be an abnormality or it must be something that now requires professional help and medication or therapy or what have you. Whereas, you know, I think as believers, right, We. We follow in the footsteps of Christ who embraced suffering on our behalf so that we could be reconciled to God and made whole. And just the experience of human life is one where we suffer in order to grow, in order to become more like Christ. And I think even more than I think any other people in the world, we have to even voluntarily take up our cross, like Jesus said, and follow him to serve him.
[00:29:43] Speaker B: You mentioned dangers of misusing terms like trauma or toxic and triggering. And so how can clinicians and church leaders work together to promote a more accurate understanding Matthew, and responsible use of mental health language in our faith communities? And I think you used a term called diagnosis inflation or something, and how that it just downplays people who are really suffering with those particular disorders.
[00:30:11] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that there are ticks of human language that are saying, well, gosh, that was really a traumatic sermon. Or to say, like, man, I feel really depressed after listening to that newscast and it seems innocent enough to start. But I think the more that we use mental health language to describe everyday experiences there is that that sense of diagnostic inflation that not only do people start to think, well, gosh, you know, because I have experienced these bad things in my life, I must be traumatized, I must have ptsd or because I feel sad often enough, I must be depressed.
And this is where you have issues with, I think, mental health awareness campaigns and screening efforts in schools that we're now finding. You know, the evidence is showing that when you ask teenagers all the time, hey, are you depressed? Are you anxious? Are you traumatized? Are you depressed? Are you anxious? Eventually they start to think, well, gosh, maybe I am. You know, I have a little trouble sleeping and I don't feel like I'm living up to my fullest potential potential and blah, blah, blah, oh, gosh, I guess I'm depressed. And then they start to see other aspects of their lives in terms of their illness and start to take on that illness identity, you know, and then they become psychologically sicker through a process of screening or what have you.
But then, you know, then when the, the person who feels like, oh, well, you know, I just feel sad sometimes starts to think of themselves as depressed.
When, when that's the same category as someone who can barely get out of bed and is constantly battling thoughts of suicide. Like, you now have this really odd equivocation between things that aren't really the same. And certainly from a. Just from a scheduling standpoint. Right. When you have people filling up psychiatrists and therapists, office says, with iatrogenic psychiatric diagnoses, then that pushes away people who,
[00:32:21] Speaker B: who are the real deal. Who the real deal.
[00:32:23] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
[00:32:26] Speaker B: So, different topic, but I'm intrigued how you got interested in writing because I personally saw.
It's unlikely, Matthew, that I will ever have a front page editorial in the New York Times.
And yet you have you joined Kristen Collier and some other authors in writing a piece about the impact of PEPFAR shutting down PEPFAR funding. So how long have you been writing? And how did you and Kristin get together from the University of Michigan to write such an article that the folks. I guess the topic was one that attracted the editors of the New York Times, which is PEPFAR and USAID decomposition
[00:33:11] Speaker C: that I, I mean, I've been writing since I was five, six years old.
I. I actually wrote a Christian sci fi romance novel when I was 12 years old.
[00:33:21] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:33:22] Speaker C: But yeah, fiction, fiction doesn't quite get on the. The front page. As easily.
So I've, I've been more seriously writing for, like, magazines and blogs and things like that since I was in residency.
How that particular piece came about was through Kristen and another friend of ours, another co author on the piece, Leah labresco Sargent. We were all, I think, very concerned about what was happening in early 2025 with PEPFAR.
And obviously you and I have both seen how that program has done incredible work in the lives of people with hiv. And so we were just kind of talking about it, and I think it was Leah who actually reached out to the, to the New York Times editors, and we all just started working on writing it together and found a place. So I'm very grateful for that opportunity
[00:34:21] Speaker B: to talk about those kinds of things and Christianity Today. What did you write for Christianity Today?
[00:34:26] Speaker C: Christianity Today.
Written a number of pieces over the years.
I think my, the biggest one I started off with was actually about vaccines back in 2016, where somehow it was less controversial then than it is now.
And I know you guys did a great episode about vaccines recently.
Yeah. So I wrote about vaccines. I've written about addiction this year. I've been writing something every month for them. A lot of it has focused around the Maha Make America Healthy Again movement, which I think has some really compelling narratives and things to say to the medical community, as well as some less
[00:35:06] Speaker B: desirable, maybe less helpful reflections. We'll say you finish up your book, Matthew with a chapter about the good enough church.
And of course, I'm assuming your goal in writing the book was clearly to inform the body of Christ, church leaders, parishioners, on resisting this therapy culture, but also paying attention to mental health. And so you finish up with a summary of what a good enough, interesting way to call good enough church and what that good enough church does in response to mental health needs. So why don't you just kind of give us. I want people to buy your book, and I don't want you to give away all your secrets and all of your conclusions, but at least summarize for us what a good enough church and pastor look like.
[00:35:53] Speaker C: Yeah, so the language of the good enough church comes from research about the good enough parent. You know, again, this, this issue of therapeutic culture has been going on for 100 years, and it just sort of accelerated in the last decade or two to the point now where I think it's much simpler to talk about therapy culture. But certainly back when Freud was coming out with his ideas and things like that, people, you know, genuinely started to worry, parents especially, started to worry. Am I Psychologically scarring my child for life just by trying my best. So they, you know, there's a lot of research that went into, okay, so what are the things that make a parent good enough to say, well, I didn't cause my child to develop mental illness? And it's very straightforward kinds of things that you might expect if you think about it, just, you know, not abusing or neglecting a child, providing appropriate boundaries and love and care.
And so the good enough church is a. I would say it's kind of like a church that's not making anyone's mental illness worse, but also kind of addressing these concerns that therapy culture has emerged in response to.
Right. So I think one of the key things is that a church that laments is good. You know, when I was a young person, there was a lot of talk about vulnerability and authenticity in the church. And I feel like the well has been poisoned a little bit with those things just because we've all been in the room with someone who was inappropriately vulnerable. Right. That needed a little bit more of a filter.
Yeah, a little bit more of a filter, Right. Or authenticity. Be like, that may be authentically you, but I didn't need to hear about that. And that didn't contribute to the body of Christ to have you sharing that in this context.
But I think a church that laments together, right. A church that looks at the whole of Scripture, right? You look at the psalms that have so many laments. I think what people are after when they talk about authenticity and vulnerability is they're really looking for a church whose songs and sermons and communal life together reflects the whole of our emotional life. Right. Which if you look at the Psalms, The Psalms, they're all over. Have that range.
And when we have song, you know, when our. When our hint. When our songs in church are only about, you know, Jesus, makes me feel better. Like, that's just denying a huge chunk of our lives as people. I think a church that is good enough is a church where people are not constantly straggling out wounded. You know, it's kind of. I use the analogy of, you know, if. If one person leaves your church and because they don't like your sermons, like, okay, that's fine. They might just be opinionated. But if everybody who leaves, like pastor, your. Your sermons are.
Are low. Are deficient on grace, right? Like, you got to do something about that. And so if everybody in the church is sort of straggling away wounded because there are toxic people in the church that are constantly wounding and harming Them, you got to figure out what's going on there and find ways to lead so that people are not constantly experiencing that.
[00:39:25] Speaker B: Your foreword says, to Maggie, when all felt so dark that I could not see the path ahead, you never let go of my hand.
Talk to us about this soulmate of yours, because I really, I think it's incredible. A primary care doctor who himself or herself has struggled with depression off and on throughout your career.
And you talk about the ability to be empathic with your patients. Those patients are blessed. Talk to us about Maggie and her role in your life, not only with your depression, but surviving there as a career missionary in Kenya.
[00:40:03] Speaker C: I cannot be more grateful for my wife. She is just an incredible person, a godly woman who loves me, who loves our children, who loves the Lord, who is a center of community and hospitality for everything. She's also a nurse and has served in the hospital here.
But in. In terms of my life, you know, there's a number of other experiences that I've had that really shook me. You know, we started off talking about South Sudan, and there was some very, very dark times when I was there. Things that happened, you know, performing an abortion to save a mother's life, seeing a colleague who was shot die in our little hospital, facing violence all around us in the community.
And, you know, there was certainly a time as well where I was not only depressed, but using pornography to self medicate. And those two things were just sort of contributing to each other, really. Those two problems were making each other worse.
And obviously, despite the fact that she was feeling betrayed and really hurt by my actions, you know, my wife continued to be a constant reminder of God's love. You know, like, she never stopped telling me, like, you know, God loves you and is gracious to you and, you know, the Holy Spirit can help you to get better. And I want to be there with you to help you walk out of this darkness.
And, you know, from the, from the therapy culture side of things, right, like, there is always that temptation to be like, well, either I, I can't get better, that I'm stuck in this diagnosis, in this, in this sickness, but also this idea that, like, if I just indulge my needs and do what makes me feel better, maybe that will help. That's a really destructive path.
And yeah, I'm just so grateful that my wife would not let me collapse into myself like that.
[00:42:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, thank you for joining me today on faith and healthcare and for investing. Had to take a while to put this together. Incredible references. Bibliography. At the end of the book for every chapter. And we've just scratched the surface whole chapter on addictions, medicalization and iatrogenesis and history of modern psychiatry. I mean, there's a lot of topics that you cover from a family physician perspective. So I'm expecting your book's going to be well received by the Church of Jesus Christ in the West. So God bless you as you continue to make an impact there in Kenya, not only in mental health, but in reproducing yourself among Christ following family physicians who the next couple of generations. God bless you, Dr. Loftus. Thanks.
[00:43:17] Speaker C: Thank you so much, Mike. God bless you too.
[00:43:29] Speaker B: I'm so grateful to Matthew for this conversation and for his honesty about the seasons he has personally navigated, even as a medical missionary that many people would not talk about publicly, especially in a national podcast conversation.
What stays with me is Maggie, his wife's faithfulness through those dark seasons. She kept reminding Matthew that God loved him and that change was indeed possible even when he struggled to see any way forward.
He also left us something to act on.
Go to your pastor before there's a crisis for someone in his flock and tell him that you're available for him. You can help him recognize when someone needs professional care and you know which counselors in your community are worth a referral. And when someone is getting that care, they still need their church.
You can go deeper in Matthew's book resisting therapy, the dangers of pop psychology, and how the church can respond. We'll share a link to that book in our show Notes for you today and next week we're going to be joined by Dr. Scott Klusendorf. He's president of Life Training Institute. He's going to share with us how we as Christians in healthcare, we can defend the inherent worth of every human life and we can communicate the pro life case with clarity as well as compassion.
Well, for a gift of any amount, CMDA will send a free copy of Scott Klusendorf's book. It's called the Case for Equipping Christians to Engage the Culture. To take advantage of this special offer, just visit CMDA.org October and we will send this book out to you as soon as possible.
I want to thank you for listening to Faith in Healthcare Today where our promise to you as a listener or better yet, a subscriber to this podcast, whether you're a healthcare professional or a patient who loves Jesus Christ, is this.
We will do everything we can at CMDA to keep your faith and healthcare connected. We'll see you next time, Lord willing.
[00:45:57] Speaker A: Thanks for listening to Faith in Healthcare, the CMDA Matters Podcast. If you would like to suggest a future guest or share a comment with us, please email cmdamatterscmda.org and if you like the podcast, be sure to give us a five star rating and share it on your favorite social media platform.
This podcast has been a production of Christian Medical and Dental Associations.
The opinions expressed by guests on this podcast are not necessarily endorsed by Christian Medical and Dental Associations.
CMDA is a non partisan organization that does not endorse political parties or candidates for public office.
The views expressed on this podcast reflect judgments regarding principles and values held by CMDA and its members and are not intended to imply endorsement of any political party or candidate.
