Episode Transcript
[00:00:08] Speaker A: You're listening to faith in healthcare, the cmda matters podcast. Here's your host, Dr. Mike chubb.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: Welcome friends, to Faith in Healthcare. You know we're in our final days of our fiscal year end giving campaign and I need your help to get us across the finish line.
Our goal this year is $1.1 million by June 30, and we're getting close.
But the final push, well, it always requires the greatest effort. And that is why I'm coming to you today with urgency and with faith.
Think about what your gift will make possible.
Students on healthcare campuses, nearly 400 of them being equipped to live out their faith bold.
So many mission teams bringing the love of Christ to the nations around the world.
Healthcare professionals being encouraged and resourced to serve not only with skill and compassion, but also willing to give the reason for the hope that they have.
Well, this is your CMDA and it cannot happen without you and your generosity this year.
June 30th is just days away. If you've been waiting for the right moment, well, this is it.
Every gift received before midnight on June 30th will count toward our goal and helps ensure that CMDA's ministries will remain strong going into the new fiscal year.
Please don't let this deadline pass without acting. You can visit CMDA.org give or call our stewardship team using 888-230-2637.
Your most dear generous gift right now. Whatever the Lord the Holy Spirit lays on your heart can make the difference between falling short and finishing strong.
Together, we are Christ's ambassadors with the task of renewing healthcare in the US and the West.
So let's finish this together.
And speaking of physicians who are committed to renewing healthcare in this episode today, I am joined by three board members of the fairly new American College of Family Medicine. It's a growing nonprofit organization that's formed to preserve and defend the principles and the practice of Hippocratic family medicine, as well as to give life affirming family physicians a unified voice on some of medicine's most contested moral and ethical questions. Today we'll hear how the organization got started, what it's fighting for, and why. Its leaders believe that staying engaged, not walking away, is the best path forward for physicians who feel that their voice has gone unrepresented.
From protecting conscience rights to pushing back against mandatory abortion training in residencies, the American College of Family Medicine stands firm in defending life affirming practices and the pursuit of excellence science based patient care.
So let's get into it.
Well, Today on faith and healthcare, I have not one or two but three very special guests to join me and they are three board members, officials from the board of the American College of Family Medicine. Now I met the president of the American College of Family Medicine for the first time in person in Seattle, Seattle, Washington in February this year as I attended my third alliance for Hippocratic Medicine board meeting. The board meeting which I became the chair of the ahm. And our listeners hear us talk about the AHM from time to time and the American College of family medicine. Dr. Hurley, I'll start with you. Dr. Hurley Christian, family physician and author who has practiced for 23 years in Northeast Texas, over two decades of experience of leadership in medical trade associations and as I mentioned, is president of ACFM and recently authored, I believe her first book, been married for 32 years and has two adult children. Joining Dr. Hurley today is Dr. Joe Docherty, founding program director of Butler Family Medicine Residency after being an associate Family medicine program director in another program, very much into primary care Sports medicine fellowship and has very interesting history as the team physician for the Pittsburgh Pirates. That's pretty cool. His interests include musculoskeletal care, throwing biomechanics. Wow. So you paid close attention to those Pirates pictures I suppose. And free market medicine. And last but not least, the youngest of the three who is almost to the finish line in very long many years path of becoming a family physician, Dr. Megan Hicks. She's about to graduate from a combined family medicine OB residency in Texas at Waco Family Medicine. Grew up in an Air Force family, homeschooled by her stay at home mom and she's going to be starting practice at a combined family medicine OB practice in Wyoming this August. So thanks to all three of you for joining me today on faith and healthcare.
[00:05:48] Speaker C: Thank you for having us.
[00:05:49] Speaker B: Well Dr. Hurley, since you're the president of this organization that I believe launched a little over two years ago, why did you form this American College of Family Medicine and what was your long term vision as you and other board members came together as an alternative for the aafp?
[00:06:09] Speaker C: Yes. So thank you so much for allowing us to come today and present a little bit about our organization and what we hope to achieve with it. As you mentioned, this organization was formed just a few years ago for the purpose of trying to enable Hippocratic minded life affirming family physicians to be able to do some advocacy on their own outside of the umbrella organization of the American Academy of Family Physicians.
Many of us were leaders within the Physicians for Life member interest group. And while we had some success within the aafp, we couldn't do any activity outside of the AAFP simply because of just the rules of the AAFP and the member interest groups. So because of that, we formed our own organization with the purpose of trying to organize our fellow family physicians who felt like, at least in some circumstances, the AAFP wasn't representing their voice.
[00:07:07] Speaker B: Now, I'm assuming, Janet or Megan or Joe, that you had an opportunity in the time of formation leading up to your launch to talk to, like, Jill Simons or other members of the American College of Pediatricians or the American association of Pro Life OBGYNs to talk about their formation and maintenance and sustainability.
[00:07:29] Speaker C: Yes, yes, we have had some pretty close conversations with them, particularly the American association of Pro Life OB GYNs. They had a family medicine section, and our founding president of our organization was the leader of the family medicine section within applog. And so they. They like to say they were an incubator for us in order to help birth us. And anyway, again, especially since they're OB GYNs, they really like that analogy. But yes, they have been very helpful in providing some advice and counseling to us as we've launched. But it has been a pretty big undertaking, I won't lie.
[00:08:08] Speaker B: And you shared with me earlier that you've not tried to be below the radar for the American Academy of Family Physicians. You've been very open with them on this formation and tell our listeners about their reaction to another college that could be viewed as competition.
[00:08:27] Speaker C: Yeah. So whenever our organization formed, I asked to meet with them briefly at our Congress of Delegates session. And I just mentioned to them that this organization was forming because I didn't want it to catch them by surprise. The first thing they wanted to know is, were we all leaving? That was their initial concern, is we hear you're pulling out. And our answer was, no, we're not pulling out. We are just forming a separate organization to continue to give a voice to those physicians that are more hippocratically minded and want to be able to do more activity outside of the organization of the aafp. You know, since then, it's really been pretty quiet. We've been respectful from the degree of, you know, we have a listserv within the Physicians for Life member interest group. You know, people are aware that the ACFM exists. We don't hide it from the group, but we also recognize that there are policies and procedures that the AFP has within the member interest group structure. And one of those is in opposition to solicitation so while we've mentioned the ACFM and we've had that information available to people, we've been respectfully, you know, not trying to use it as a primary platform for recruitment.
And to be honest, I want people to stay in the aafp, and I hope we get a chance to chat about that later. I don't want people to leave. We're not pulling out because we've had real wins within the aafp and it's important that we stay there to prevent a vacuum from forming.
[00:10:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I do want to get to that later, Dr. Hurley, but before we move on to talk a little bit more about the college, Joe or Megan, how did you find out about this movement? Did Dr. Hurley or her predecessor give you a ring or talk to you over coffee about this new college?
[00:10:25] Speaker D: Yeah, so I'll probably get the timeline wrong, but it was probably in the Jan Kirk, if I'm wrong, probably the 2019, 2020 timeframe. I had heard about the formation of the Pro Life member interest group.
Sort of questioned whether there was any group that was willing to do any Pro Life advocacy.
And I didn't really hear back for a year or two. And then our former president, Dr. Paul Dassau, emailed me one day. He said, would you be interested in helping form an organization?
I said, sure. And here we are.
[00:11:03] Speaker B: Megan, how about yourself?
[00:11:04] Speaker E: I found my way into ACFM by being an applog fan, girly, and so just like a huge fan of applause work. And I was just blown away when I saw what they were doing and got fomo. If I can be a little millennial here. But family medicine didn't have something like this and that we weren't using our family medicine voice, which I found such a home in as an obstetrical provider to advocate for our preborn babies.
Seems like such a natural place to be for a family physician. So I'm so excited for ACFM and for Christina Francis, who's, I notice, also making the podcast rounds.
[00:11:49] Speaker B: Well, Dr. Hurley, I do want to say that those of us on the AHM board care deeply about, you know, promoting and propagating Hippocratic medicine. We're very excited about the report that you gave us about the ACFM and your desire to come alongside and have an impact. Very exciting.
Would you tell our listeners what are your key areas of focus and some of our regular listeners over the last few years. It's going to sound a little bit familiar, I think.
[00:12:19] Speaker C: It sure is. Yeah.
So we are focused primarily on beginning of life. We are staunchly pro Life organization. We're focused on end of life. We do not support physician assisted suicide.
We strongly support a physician's rights of conscience to be able to practice in a way that's consistent with their morals and values. And we have significant concerns with the transgender movement that's occurring within our young people. And it's interesting because I believe Those are the four pillars that were in CMDA's annual report this past year. So there's a lot of synergy. And one of the goals that we hope to have as an organization is to continue to partner with CMDA and other members of the alliance for Hippocratic Medicine. Because in the end, many of us are focused on all of the same issues.
And rather than having us all write a position statement on something, we probably could collaborate together. And I'm excited for that opportunity as we continue through this journey together.
[00:13:21] Speaker B: So for Janet or Joe or Megan, what beyond creating this professional home for Hippocratic primary care docs, what kind of physicians and what kind of healthcare culture are you hoping to see formed over the next generation? So that maybe, Megan, as you look back over the first decade or two of your practice in Wyoming, that you say this is the kind of culture that we have envisioned and this is how we hope to get there.
[00:13:48] Speaker E: Well, I appreciate you suggesting me, but I feel like I really have to look up to Janet here on this. So long.
[00:14:00] Speaker C: Yeah.
Well, I'll help you out, Megan. You know, one of the things that's really important to me is I want medicine to get back to a place where life affirming physicians and students and residents don't feel attacked or intimidated by their beliefs. It's very important to me that we give a voice to our young physicians and even to our mature physicians that have felt like they've needed to silence themselves and their true beliefs.
I want to empower members to speak up. And there's strength in numbers, and we've had that success within the AAFP's Physicians for Life member interest group. We just have to organize and share bullet points and share strategies. And a lot of times we can get a great deal more testimony, engagement, and involvement when people realize they're not alone and that there truly are individuals that are organizing behind them and supporting them. And it's important for us to continue to be seen as reasonable and respectful. I mean, too many times in the past, our side and their side too, we get exasperated like we can't figure out how to talk to each other. And it's important that we continue to have dialogue with each other in a respectful way. It's been an interesting journey within the AAFP as part of the Physicians for Life member interest group as we've gained credibility, but we need to continue extending that outside of that parent organization as the American College of Family Medicine and as us as Hippocratic. Physicians need to continue to be seen as reasonable and respectful and focused on science.
The other side, they have a different interpretation of science sometimes.
And we simply need to make sure that we give a voice that's organized, well thought out, and that I think is really going to assist many of our Hippocratic and life affirming physicians in finding their voice again.
[00:16:05] Speaker B: So a couple of quick questions. So how many members do you now have so far that are part of this and what are your talking points as you meet with Physicians for Life subgroup members within afb talking to points about why they should consider being part of the American College of Family Medicines? And I know I cut you off there, Megan, so we'll get back to you.
[00:16:27] Speaker C: So I just say that, I mean right now we have about 220 members or so within the American College of family medicine, about 300 what we would call our constituents, other individuals that have expressed interests, that get our newsletters and such. Within the Physicians for Life member interest group, we have just under 700 physicians. And usually when it comes to AAFP Congress of Delegates resolutions, we provide individualized talking points for those resolutions, either in support or in opposition. Most of the time sadly in opposition. And that has been very helpful in assisting physicians. Now, as the American College of Family Medicine, there will be opportunities for us to share information with our members, much like CMDA does, where you realize that there is an opportunity for doctors to provide, to sign a petition or do individual testimony to various different regulatory agencies. Those are the type of things that we can continue to do within the acfm. And we're learning from CMDA and others on how to make that effective.
[00:17:40] Speaker B: Megan, you wanted to share feedback?
[00:17:43] Speaker E: Yeah, I would love to just piggyback off of Janet and saying, as far as changing the culture for young people, I think it's so simple to really just dialogue with us, try to get young people, physicians in training and medical students to think through and say these ideas out loud and not just go with the status quo. We get so inundated in our training and in mainstream media with all these subliminal messages. And I have a couple of examples from questions that were given to medical students at a real medical school in Texas that has some of this sort of subliminal messaging that we get. And the people sharing those messages are not afraid. They're, you know, they share them gladly. And so many of the folks sharing pro life, Christian, just life affirming messaging are pretty shy about it. I didn't have. I had, really people who I suspected in medical school were pro life and Christian folks, but very quiet, lots of crickets outside of, you know, a literal CMDA meeting.
And I think just be more open and talk to students about, you know, what do you think about abortion? Just do it, I think, and get us to kind of work through those hard questions and stop taking them for granted. If I could change anything about the culture around abortion and the pro life movement, it would be to not take that for granted, that the other side would love so much for abortion to be the default.
And I think we just need to be more frank about it and have a more open conversation about it.
[00:19:34] Speaker B: Really good point. I've had so many conversations with students who go to the ama, the student section of the ama, and it's like I was so afraid to speak up because it's almost as if I may be the only person in the room in this assembly that feels the way I feel. And when that courageous student says something, it's not necessarily that a ton of other students speak up at that moment, but it's the meeting, after the meeting.
So many students come and say, man, I'm so glad you said something. I thought I was the only person in the room. And I was a little nervous to speak up.
And it's been so long since Roe v. Wade. It's been a long time. That faculty, who taught faculty, it's just kind of been the way things have been for over 50 years that people are afraid, especially in academic, public, square environments, to speak up. So I guess that's a role for the American College of Family Medicine. Joe and Pittsburgh are having colleagues.
How many of your colleagues do you know, even in Pittsburgh, who are part of ACFM or you think would be willing, if they really understood the movement, to sign on.
[00:20:46] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:20:46] Speaker D: So I know there's a large amount of people who share our views, sort of going back to what Janet and Megan were both saying before.
A lot of them, they don't feel like they can speak up. Right. And so I hope that as we reach critical mass as an organization, they'll see the benefit of coming to us and realizing, hey, there's a lot more people out there that support me than I realized and so that they can help step out and help make those Cultural changes, those healthcare changes as well.
[00:21:21] Speaker B: Dr. Hurley, just a follow up. How big is your board now for ACFM?
[00:21:26] Speaker C: I think 10, 9, 10, 10 10.
[00:21:30] Speaker B: And in terms of diversity, clearly we had this discussion that if you look at your core principles, while there's a lot of overlap in the Venn diagram between CMDA and ACFM, it's not really a faith based 501C3 much like AHM. And so have you. What sort of collaboration with Catholic Medical association, with Coptic, other members of the AHM board and founding organizations. What have others stepped forward and said I want to be a part of this too? I mean you could in theory.
I think we heard in Seattle life affirming atheists.
So I realize that's the point. How easy or difficult is that going to be to get people to join your cause in that situation?
[00:22:18] Speaker C: Yeah. So. Well, as far as collaborating with the other organizations, I, you know, I've been very close with Kathy Deeds at applog. Obviously I very much enjoy the opportunity to have time at the alliance for Hippocratic Medicine's board meeting in Seattle to just share who we are. I got a few business cards. I reached out yesterday to leaders within applog and within CMDA to begin connecting, particularly in the advocacy space.
And so I'm excited for the opportunity that that would create to continue to produce synergy. One of the members that serves on our advocacy committee for ACFM is very active in the advocacy space. Cindy Nosasek. She is very active in the advocacy space for the Christian. She's made for the Catholic Medical Association.
She's retired and so she has free time to write some of their position statements and policy papers. And one of the comments I had for her at our meeting last night is CC me on those things. Let them know we want to be a part of that. And as you're doing all this wonderful work in cma, we want to be a part of that as well. And she's one of our members. She's a retired family physician and she's serving on one of our committees. And you know, we just got our committee structure off the ground this year and that's why on our annual report, the title, the theme was Taking Flight. You know, the first year we were trying to figure out how to be an organization. The second year we were trying to organize and recruit. This year is the year we really want to begin taking action and getting organized and really looking forward to partnering with these other organizations.
[00:24:11] Speaker B: Megan, I want to ask you as an almost done resident with a focus on OB and there's been such a huge push. I don't necessarily you could speak to this janitor Joe within the AFP on how strong the push is to get family medicine residents mandated to be trained to do abortions. And I know that you have spoken out in your House of Delegates for the AFP against such mandates, but talk about the whole idea that students or residents, they just won't want to train in states where abortion is restricted. What can you tell us?
[00:24:46] Speaker E: I just think that hasn't it's been a lot of fear mongering from that side saying oh well, students aren't going to want to train where abortions are banned and it just hasn't first of all borne out in the evidence. OB GYN residencies matched excellently in the last round of the match. And all the studies that I've found, the recent few of them since Dobbs just haven't borne that out. Conversely, the focus of none of those studies has been on whether or not life affirming physicians are avoiding pro abortion states and states with pro abortion laws. You hear about that poor abortion pill reversal clinic in Colorado that just got wrecked and went through the ringer with that case and ultimately they won and they're able to continue doing abortion pill reversal. But I personally am a little too chicken quite yet to brave, you know, us practicing in a state like Colorado or California where I hope to be doing abortion pill reversal and obstetrical care. That's life affirming. And so yeah, you'll find me for the time being and Texas or Wyoming or something.
[00:26:06] Speaker A: Before we continue with this week's episode, here's a special announcement for you.
Something exciting is happening at cmda.
Healthcare professionals across the country are stepping up and becoming lifetime members of CMDA at record pace and we want to to invite you to join them.
This is more than a membership. It is a declaration that your faith and your calling are permanently connected.
That you are committed to the mission to help bring the hope and healing of Christ to the world while being a champion to the next generation of believers.
To learn more and join a community committed to transforming healthcare For Christ, visit CMDA.org to go even deeper with CMDA, The CMDA Learning center is continuing to grow and it's an incredible resource for Christian healthcare professionals.
You'll find content from recent national conventions, the Faith Prescription series, continuing education opportunities, and a wide range of courses designed to support both your professional work and your spiritual growth.
And here's the best part. As a CMDA member, you can earn Continuing education credits at no cost.
To start exploring the full library, visit CMDA.org learn let's jump right back into this week's episode.
[00:27:42] Speaker B: Joe talked to us about Pennsylvania and in particular and what it's like to be a life affirming residency program director. What are the challenges and the joys of being such a program director?
[00:27:54] Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, Pennsylvania is, as you know, the purpley state. There's really not too much legislation one way or another. We are a legal state for abortion. But I would say my challenges don't necessarily lie within the being in Pennsylvania.
As you alluded to some of the measures that have been proposed as far as forcing family medicine residencies to teach abortion and transgendered youth care. It's always in the back of your mind. You know, we're not to the point where they're forcing that yet. But you know, what if they do right? Then me as a program director either have to, you know, go against my values or your program shuts down or you get fired. So even though that hasn't been too big of an issue just yet, you know, it always, it's always in the back of your mind.
[00:28:48] Speaker B: And do residents bring up the topic very often over the last few years, have they brought, whether it's abortion or assisted suicide or sex, rejecting sorts of interventions?
[00:29:00] Speaker D: I mean, you'll have some of it, you'll have some that are on the pro side, you'll have some that are on the anti side. It's all across the board. You know, residencies are diverse themselves, but the residents themselves are diverse too. So fortunately, I've been blessed in my career to be in several programs who allowed residents and faculty to, you know, practice what they believe. But I know that's not the case everywhere. So I've been blessed in that regards.
[00:29:29] Speaker E: Just anecdotally talking to, you know, I get to work with a lot of medical students as a resident. And anecdotally I'll say that I just see a lot of relief when I get the chance to talk to them about my path and how, you know, my personal statement for residency was faith based. And, you know, I did that intentionally to sort of test the waters who would be open to my rights of conscience and who would value those. And so when they hear that I found a place, whoa, like providing obstetrical care, they just seem relieved that, oh my goodness, I didn't know that that was possible or that I could even pivot in that direction, sort of lean into the rights of conscience and be more open about It.
[00:30:15] Speaker B: So let's follow up on that. Megan or Joe, what would you say to Christian, Protestant, Catholic, or Hippocratically committed trainees who fear that they might be marginalized on the way? You said there's some reticence, but then you open the door for them. We talk about faith flags at cmda, but maybe also Hippocratic life affirming flags that could be raised. Oh, I think what she just said means I can talk about what I believe.
But what would you say to the trainees along the path who do have, I mean, legitimate fears that they may lose career opportunities, especially if they're thinking at all about an academic career or even somehow their institutions retaliating?
[00:30:55] Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, the fear is real for a resident, for sure.
The only thing I can say to them is that you will have opportunities.
You may have a rough path. Going through residency doesn't necessarily support your values, but I think the fear of the storm is often worse than the storm itself.
And so, you know, I, I would urge, you know, like minded students or applicants to, you know, live out their faith. Don't shy away from it. You know, you don't want to necessarily end up in a program that's going to be antithetical to your values, but you never know who's going to be there. And if I may just add a little anecdotes in that regard. So I remember I was doing the inpatient service in my prior job and I was doing a feedback session with one of our PGY theory residents and she just asked me out of the blue and, you know, I really couldn't believe it. She said, what are your thoughts on abortion? And it was nothing that we were talking about. And she was a pro choice resident, so we talked, we had respectful discussion, we went on our way.
Four years later I get a text from her and said, thank you for talking to me. I agree with you.
And so, you know, you sort of plant that seed and let God make the water of the tree.
[00:32:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And you obviously weren't threatening. And you know, I would think that that sort of experience for that particular resident probably just didn't stay with her. I'm guessing that she shared that with others that she'd had that interaction with you. You know, we get told that we're political all the time when we bring up many of these issues, because these issues understandably have been borne out with all kinds of arguments and controversy at the political level.
How do you, with your residents, or Janet with colleagues, or Megan with colleagues, help steer the Conversation much in the direction like a guest I had just a few weeks ago from the American Society of plastic surgeons, Dr. Scott Glasberg, about evidence in pointing out to trainees and colleagues that ideology and medicine are just not good bedfellows.
[00:33:13] Speaker C: Well, I'll jump in. You know, it's hard because a lot of people, we have to all be aware of our own personal blind spots. And we certainly, as Christians, we look at the science, we have an opinion on how we value that independent life that is within the womb. We shouldn't question that it is life. It is definitely alive.
We shouldn't question that it is distinct and unique from the mother, because it is.
The ideology of the other side chooses to just ignore the value of that life that's in the womb. And we see this in other aspects.
You know, I get frustrated when people say, I've heard testimony at the AAFP level, people saying you should keep religion out of the exam room, but yet they're bringing their worldview into the exam room every day.
You can call it just their ideology or their philosophy, use whatever other word you want to describe it as, but it is essentially their belief system.
That's what they have put their faith in. In essence, that's their religion. So it's okay for them to bring their religion, their faith system into the exam room. And yet they're critical when Judeo Christian philosophy is brought in to the exam room. And so I reject that argument. And I'm, you know, I feel like a lot of times these are just smoke screens to distract us from what the science truly says.
You know, I have done some advocacy work on the transgender side, providing studies to key individuals who later freely admitted to me, to my face, that they didn't look at the studies, they admitted it.
And, you know, it's hard to know how to process that information, but ideology can really blind people away from seeing the science for what it truly is.
And when you have numerous countries that are ahead of us on the transgender topic reversing course, how can we ignore their data?
And yet that is what some are doing. Not all, but some.
[00:35:37] Speaker B: Joe, Megan, thoughts?
[00:35:39] Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, Janet hit it right on the head there.
You know, in residencies, we teach evidence based medicine and medical decision making.
Well, we're all aware of publication bias. And so a lot of residents and physicians, you know, aren't aware of a lot of the actual studies that are out there, either because it comes from a, you know, what's not highly regarded as a. As a journal, or the studies get ignored in the first place.
So just making those studies come to light is a, is a challenge in itself. But when they're known the evidence is strong.
[00:36:18] Speaker E: I think abortion pill reversal really typifies this. It's just really exciting that, you know, just invalidating of course, oh, it was evidence based. We knew it was evidence based. But now we can really bear that out and show it pretty irrefutably to the point, you know, when Supreme Court cases, praise God. So I do think that there's an issue with the way that sort of evidence is distorted and presented. Like I said, kind of in preparing for today, I was trying to find, you know, what would be the rates of people avoiding pro abortion states like clinicians avoiding practicing in pro abortion states. And well, the answer is that nobody's to going done a study focusing on that yet and oh well, okay, that's convenient. So it very much I agree with Janet. I think the evidence will bear out on our side that we hold these truths to be self evident and that these are beautiful precious lives and that we'll continue to find that the more we look.
[00:37:20] Speaker B: I love the Vince Lombardi illustration after kind of a bad finish to a football season where he came back and started the next season with his team and said, gentlemen, this is a football and started from very, very basic. So my question for you is what role does educating other family physicians in practice and in training of what is traditional classic Hippocratic medicine? I mean maybe some people have heard primum non noceri or even the organization do no harm, but certainly Hippocratic medicine, while that's a foundation, is more complicated than that. I mean there is more more to it. So what role does education have for the ACFM have to play?
[00:38:01] Speaker D: You know, education is everything.
But even before you can educate somebody, awareness has to be at the forefront, right? If somebody's not aware that our organization exists or aware, and to be honest, aware that people have other views other than what they think is out there, then they're never going to be able to educate themselves or we're never going to be able to educate them. So regarding education, awareness is job one, okay?
[00:38:33] Speaker C: And then as these topics come up again, once people either become an actual member or they just become a constituent and get on our mailing list for information that gives us an opportunity to share. Did you know this was happening in your state?
Did you know that this bill is coming up for discussion? Did you know that you could submit just these few talking points to your legislator? Did you know that there's an Easy way to do that. Cmda, you know, you make that easy for your members. Sometimes they can click into your advocacy center and it pre selects, you know, has a predefined letter and it, you know, will automatically link them to their legislators.
You know, ideally we would put some personal comments in there too, to make it more personal, but we have to get the word out. But we can't get the word out if we don't have people signed up to receive that or they get the emails and they don't open them. And so that gives us an opportunity. Again, we've seen that be successful within the AAFP using the Physicians for Life platform. You know, you mentioned the recent proposal, the resolution that came through this past year seeking to make abortion training mandatory in all family medicine residency programs with only an opt out provision.
We had 82 or 81 people testify on our side, 81 of our members.
Many of them were students in residence, many of them were residency program directors.
Now the other side also had 81 people testifying. I think they got nervous seeing all of us doing online testimony. That's the power. And of course we were successful. And I'll also add that that testimony allowed me to speak to the resident leader.
That was one of the key delegations that was pushing this. Again, this is the resident leaders representing all residents, including life affirming residents.
And they're living in their own little bubble and the people that they're around in the community that they live in and the residency program they work in is very pro abortion and they don't understand how there could be other people who disagree.
I had the opportunity to pull that resident leader aside. She was the delegate.
And I said, I want to give you advice that I received when I was a young leader myself. When you are in this position, you are representing all residents, not just the residents that think like you, not just the residents that are in your area of influence, but all of them.
And she responded very positively to that. She said, I don't, you know, and why did I, Why was she, she willing to listen?
She was willing to listen because 81 people, including residents, students and program directors, testified online and made our opinions clearly known.
So we just have to not be afraid.
And back to the point of doctors being afraid they'll lose their job, residents being afraid they won't get a job, students afraid that they won't match.
If you're a student listening to this podcast and you're interested in family medicine and you're coming to the future conference, come find the Physicians for Life member interest group. We have a list of residency programs that would love to help you operate and train in programs where you will not be threatened by having to be doing things outside of your area of comfort. You don't need to be afraid.
And if you're a resident and you don't get a job because they don't like the fact that you're a Christian, you're probably better off getting a different job anyway. And by the way, CMDA has job listings.
Applog has job listings.
There are places you can work and live out your faith.
So we just have to work real hard to not operate in fear. But it's challenging. It's challenging.
[00:43:05] Speaker B: Well, thank you, Dr. Hurley, for those promos of our placement services. And we hope to even add more services for students looking for faith friendly residencies in the near future as we wrap up here. We run out of time, but we started off at the beginning, so I hope we get to talk a little bit about one topic which is staying in there and having an impact. And you just gave a great illustration of having 81 testimonies.
And I can imagine the amount of influence that you're going to have if you're not part of the AAFP versus you're a member of acfm, but you're very engaged. I would think that the leadership, the board, the most influential people, executive management folks within AAFP have to respect that you're still remaining engaged even though you have this alternative that you have begun. So talk to our listeners. I have many friends, many of our members who have dropped out of the afp. They don't want to put money into the AFP because of these issues we're talking about. So what would any of you have to say to those, whether young, just coming, starting practice or having been at practice, what, in training or not? What would you say to those who've dropped out of the AFP right now?
[00:44:18] Speaker D: I used to be one of those people and getting to know Janet, she makes a convincing argument. She's absolutely right.
You know, I like to tell people if you're not in the kitchen, you don't get to offer any menu choices to the diners. And so, you know, we need to be seen, we need to be heard, and we need to be able to offer our opinion and support to people who think like us.
[00:44:41] Speaker C: Yeah. And I would just, I would just add on to that. That was the position we were in in 2019.
That was when the AAFP flipped from being neutral on abortion to be in support of Abortion. There were nine pro abortion resolutions that year. The other side was mobilized, organized. They had multiple individual states submit essentially the same resolution.
That was the year they were going to flip the academy. And there was a hodgepodge of us that showed up through cmda. I reached out to CMDA and said, I'm going. Please tell me I won't be by myself. And seven. We had a total of seven of us.
Now, again, that doesn't match the organization that the other side had. It led to the development of the Physicians for Life member interest group. But to some degree, it was our absence that caused that in the first place. It was our lack of organization, our fear of standing up and testifying. The other side had a member interest group that was mobilized for several years and we were not. And that was part of our challenge.
[00:45:52] Speaker B: Well, as we wrap up, I did want to mention to our listeners for our viewers that Dr. Hurley has just published a book entitled Healing, Empowering Wellness Through Spiritual Warfare. And she gave me the privilege of giving an endorsement at the beginning of the book. And I write here as a missionary over 20 years in Kenya at Timok Hospital.
You know, dealing with spiritual warfare and talking about it even at Morning Report from time to time was fairly common. I doubt there are too many morning reports or handovers in the US where spiritual warfare is dealt with. But your partners and those in your environment, how often do you have these kinds of conversations with your colleagues there where you practice?
[00:46:35] Speaker C: Often. I often have it come up in my exam room. Once you see spiritual warfare, once you see it, once you understand that there are ways to call it out, there are strategies you can use. We fight spiritual warfare with truth.
And when we think about the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control. Where is fear?
It's not in there.
So that's not a fruit of the spirit.
So it's probably being instigated outside of your spirit itself.
Identifying that, calling it out, it comes up often. And I certainly am hopeful that those strategies will be helpful to others if they have the opportunity to read the book. Thank you for your endorsement.
[00:47:25] Speaker B: Yeah. And I assume on Amazon they can find your book.
[00:47:29] Speaker C: Amazon, Barnes and Noble and Charis Publishing also has it on their website as well.
[00:47:35] Speaker B: I will say it's a fairly easy read. I think one of our listeners could read through it in a couple, three days if they wanted to. Well, thank you, Dr. Docker Yee and Dr. Megan Hicks and Dr. Hurley for representing your board and this movement.
And we at CMDA will be rooting for you and looking for ways that we can come alongside and help you counsel you. So please reach out to us anytime. Just an open invitation to you and your board if you'd like to sit down and deliberate how we can face a challenge together. Because of course we have a lot of family physicians who are members. And so I know that some have enjoyed hearing this interview today. So God bless each one of you and Megan as you launch and practice with those three little boys and your husband and a young family in Wyoming and catching babies there. And Joe as you bringing up the next generation of life affirming, hopefully most of them life affirming residents there in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. God bless. Thank you for joining me today.
[00:48:35] Speaker D: Thank you very much.
[00:48:37] Speaker C: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
[00:48:48] Speaker B: You know, whether you are a medical student wondering if there's a place for your convictions in the profession you've chosen to pursue, or a resident quietly holding your values close at bay, or maybe a seasoned clinician who's felt the pressure to stay silent, what you heard today I think is a reminder that there is a growing community of men and women who refuse to separate their faith from their calling and refuse to give up Christian hypocritism.
Organizations like the American College of Family Medicine and CMDA are making it harder and harder for life affirming healthcare professionals to feel alone.
Don't let fear write the story of your career. The numbers are growing and more importantly, the giver of life has not stepped away from his creation or the exam room.
He is with us, friends, every time we walk into that exam room or operating room. If you want to learn more about the American College of Family Medicine, we'll share their website in our show Notes today. And if this episode encouraged or equipped you, please consider sharing it with a fellow healthcare professional who needs right now to hear it and subscribe so that you don't miss future episodes of Faith in Healthcare.
Next week we're going to be presenting a program that was recorded in a breakout session of our national convention in April in Loveland, Colorado. It's a session that I co taught with a fourth year graduating medical student, Mrs. Bethany Taylor, and we're going to be talking about health care mentoring both from the perspective of of a mentor as well as the mentee. You don't want to miss it.
Thank you for listening to Faith and Healthcare, where our promise to you as a listener or better yet, a subscriber to this podcast. Whether you're a healthcare professional or a patient who loves Jesus Christ as this.
We will do everything that we can to keep your faith and health care connected.
We'll see you next time time, Lord willing.
[00:51:10] Speaker A: Thanks for listening to Faith in Healthcare, the CMDA Matters Podcast.
If you would like to suggest a future guest or share a comment with us, please email cmdamatterscmda.org and if you like the podcast, be sure to give us a five star rating and share it on your your favorite social media platform.
This podcast has been a production of Christian Medical and Dental Associations.
The opinions expressed by guests on this podcast are not necessarily endorsed by Christian Medical and Dental Associations.
CMDA is a nonpartisan organization that does not endorse political parties or candidates for public office.
The views expressed on this podcast reflect judgments regarding principles and values held by CMDA and its members and are not intended to imply endorsement of any political party or candidate.
