[00:00:08] Speaker A: You're listening to faith in healthcare, the cmda matters podcast. Here's your host, Dr. Mike chubb.
[00:00:20] Speaker B: Thank you, Jamie. And welcome, friends, to Faith in healthcare. I'm Dr. Mike Chupp and I'm so glad that you're with us today.
You know, training a healthcare professional can influence generations of patients.
That makes how we prepare clinicians and actually where that training happens a vital part of global health.
But where is Christian health worker training actually happening around the world?
And where Is it missing? Dr. Ron Yee and Dr. Gary Cloud set out to answer that question.
Working with Christian Connections for International Health, they mapped thousands of Christian health worker training programs worldwide, including a focused study of residencies and fellowships in low and middle income countries.
Along the way, they got a clear look at what the strong programs are doing well, including how they balance rigorous clinical training with spiritual formation and frankly, where the biggest gaps still remain.
I want to invite you to listen in. And as you do, would you ask God to open your heart and your mind to how you might personally engage in the equipping of Christian global health care professionals, especially in places where the gospel desperately needs to be demonstrated and heard?
Well, today on faith and Healthcare, I have invited my good friend, our vice president of missions and Medical Education, Dr. John Pierce, to join me today because John's background is all about medical education and it's combined with missions. So our guests today, John, are just. Well, they're perfect. They're in your lane.
[00:02:11] Speaker C: I love the opportunity to be able to talk with Ron and Gary. They are enthusiastic and they just love education and what we can do with education through missions.
[00:02:20] Speaker B: Well, John, your partner in crime, in missions crime, if you will. Dr. Julie Rose is the first person who suggested to me that Dr. Ron Yee and Dr. Gary Cloud, our guests, would be fantastic to come on Faith in Healthcare and talk about an incredible project that they've been working on for at least a couple of years. So without any further ado, Dr. Ron Yee was a rural California practicing primary care specialist for, for farm workers and was involved in a very large national association of community health centers and his prayer partner, Dr. Gary Cloud. After a number of years of prayer, both of them, God called in a special way. We're going to hear about that just a little bit to get involved with a consortium called the Christian Health Asset Mapping Consortium to help figure out where all the training institutions are in Christian settings around the globe. So, Dr. Ron, Dr. Gary, welcome to Faith in Healthcare Today. Thank
[00:03:20] Speaker D: you. Thank you so much for having us.
[00:03:22] Speaker B: Well, what motivated you guys to get involved in the first place. And then how did this consortium come about to try to do a very difficult job? And before we got going here today, I explained to you that dating back to the heart of the COVID pandemic, I was involved with USAID physicians and international partners to try to figure out maybe how to do this to provide healthcare in the midst of the COVID pandemic. So give us some background, one or both of you.
[00:03:49] Speaker D: Yeah. So Gary and I both work in our secular jobs in the university and then also the national scene, working with community health centers. And God called us both out of that to contribute to what's going on globally. And so we started doing some investigations to see who we could partner with and volunteer with. And we came into contact with the Christian Connections for International Health group out of D.C.
and we basically said if you guys had some extra time, what would you work on and what are your burdens to really focus on? And they told us, you know, we want to really understand the theology of health and implement that into our work with our membership. And also we want to work at Unity in the church of how do we work cross denominationally to do healthcare training and service.
So we went to Christian Connections for International Health and they got us started on this project and said look, we need to know what's going out in the field. We've worked on this off and on over the years. This is a big priority to just delineate what's out in the field, what are these assets, who's doing the training in the Christian realm? Biblically based Christian gospel centered training programs. So we started first with health worker training in general and, and so they said who's out there? Who are the physicians? PAs, nurse practitioners, nurses, allied health. And so it took us about a year actually to work through this. And we found two studies worldwide. We looked at 3800 different colleges and programs and this included 1300 different institutions and 18 different disciplines. And it broke down. We found what was the distribution of these and this was really critical for CCIH and their membership is faith based organizations have typically been excluded for some things because they didn't know how to quantify what that was and then where they were. And so they asked us to do this so that we could collaborate better, pray for each other, but learn from each other as well and then collaborate interdominationally.
The second one we followed up on was low middle class income countries, the GME. So we looked at 270 different institutions, 54 LMICs and we identified 1600 fellowships and residency programs.
So that was the main work that we did. Took us about a year to do this.
And I think some of the things that were really interesting that we found that were kind of surprising also is the broad spectrum, which you would expect. But the contrast, some of these organizations have been around 160 years. Some of the Catholic groups have maintained their mission and they had no mission drift in terms of the centrality of the Gospel message and service.
We found others that had waxed and waned over the years and basically had become less Christian and Bible focused over the years to the point where you really can't really find it. It's in their name, but when you go to the website and you look at their student teaching, it's really absent. The second thing was the rising importance of behavioral health and Christian counseling is these programs have been multiplying and those have been growing faster than primary care or specialty care. Because I think worldwide we know the mental and behavioral health issues are becoming overwhelming even in other countries.
I think the third thing was really finding some institutions that were in places you wouldn't really expect it, in places that are not so friendly to Christian and the Gospel, Christian aspects and training and the gospel.
So Those are the three mains. The last one was there was 80 low middle income countries without any Christian health worker training. That was astounding to us and I think it's a big call on us to answer that to see if we can help that cause. But they have nothing in 80 countries.
[00:07:47] Speaker C: Wow. You know, I'll never forget Ron and Gary, when we first met, you said, golly, John, if you don't get the theology of health right, you're going to go off course.
And I love gme. I love residents and students. And so when I think about the theology of health and I think about what you guys are doing, trying to be able to understand how to practice from a Christian versus a secular perspective.
What would you say is the real difference, especially when you're looking globally in terms of curriculum, spiritual formation, approach to patient care. What's the difference between the secular and the Christian approach?
[00:08:28] Speaker E: Well, let me start with where I think the difference. There usually is a difference in the startup of these programs. I think the motivation to start a GME program, the motivation to start a degree granting institution is often Christian compassion and, or zeal for the Gospel.
But frankly guys, I don't think there's enough difference in the curriculum or even in the sometime attempts for spiritual formation as there ought to be. And it becomes a challenge really because of limited time. And with the limited time folks focus on the curriculum. And so what I see happening way too often is, is startups of new GME programs, startups especially of degree granting programs, adopting a secular curriculum, leaving little time for spiritual formation. And the result is healthcare that looks remarkably like that of the world. Yeah.
[00:09:25] Speaker C: Technological and devoid of Christ.
[00:09:28] Speaker E: Yeah, I think there's a foundational issue here in that. Are we going to say that say medical education is this thing and then let's hang some Christian decorations around it.
Are we going to start out with a theology of health and say this is what we are and then add in the fact based stuff that we are aware of. It's a real what's first question, is it really about us being Christian providers or providers who by the way are sometimes Christian?
[00:10:00] Speaker C: So as you guys have studied this and looked at it, how can you help us in understanding the educational gaps or really the needs that you identified to really be able to care for people from a Christian perspective and the needs that are in low and middle income countries?
[00:10:17] Speaker D: You know, as Gary mentioned, we looked into this and I think there's some examples of GME programs that have figured some of this out.
And I was, through our research we came upon of course stateside, we have in his image in Tulsa, Oklahoma. I also think about the Pan African Academy of Christian Surgeons in Africa and also the Christian Academy of African Physicians. And they have figured out how to fill these gaps. And really I think it's a challenge to build all the clinical training necessary but also include the spiritual formation or Christian character development in that. And so I think these groups have really figured that piece out of really how do they do this? And they found that balance because it's very rigorous, you know, in GME to get all the clinical training in that you need in a short period of time. And I think the real gaps have been how to do that and how to balance the clinical curriculum with the spiritual development curriculum. Also how do you find faculty that are really strong believers that can not only teach it, but model it before their students? And I think that's a challenge because many of these countries you try to find somebody just to teach the course. And so that's another step. I think the other thing is that in terms of resources there's really very inconsistent approaches of the integration of the spiritual and the clinical. And some like as I mentioned, pacs, which is the abbreviation and CAP Africa there, have really figured out how to bring that curriculum together and to document It. So I think in our work we've been trying to figure out how do we create a framework that different denominations can use that have the spiritual factor in there.
I think another thing that the gaps are is the tie between graduate medical education and undergraduate, so medical school to residency.
Very few programs have any flow or connection whatsoever.
And I think especially on the spiritual side, how do you keep people going in their faith and applying their faith through that? So I think that's a big one. Another problem we've come up with is how do you define quality training not only from the clinical side, but also spiritually?
How do you measure their application of their faith in their daily walks? How do they pray for their patients? How does they share the gospel? And I think that's been a tough one to really quantify and figure out how to do.
I think the last gap that we came up with, starting with the theology of health and being a biblically based approach, is how do we bring unity to the church when we do this work together among different denominations that are gospel centered, biblically based Christian denominations. How do we bridge some of those gaps that have been there for years and decades to work together to bring unity, but also how to implement the true biblical theology of health and God's shalom, not only being full and whole physically, but spiritually, socially, economically. In these countries that Gary mentioned many times have a brain drain where the people who are capable end up leaving for training and never come back.
So I think those are some of the gaps that we've seen that we've been praying about in trying to work together to learn from each other how to approach some of these gaps.
[00:13:42] Speaker B: Ron, Gary, it's been actually, I think over 18 months since the consortium results have been published. At least the articles I've seen.
So some time has passed. So help us to understand the scope of this is massive. And you know our listeners, first of all, where can our listeners go that they can find these papers, a description of what the consortium accomplished?
Where's the website?
Where can they go on the web?
[00:14:09] Speaker E: Go to Christian Connections for International Health and within that website you'll find the chance to go to the Mapping Consortium.
[00:14:17] Speaker B: Okay, so thanks for answering that question.
Since it's been 18 months and, you know, probably a month later the data had aged.
So what's the process for keeping it up to date? There's got to be every week with the numbers we're talking about the nation's 111 LMICs.
There's got to be programs every week. So what's the process for keeping it up to date. Then part two of my question is how is this. Information is power, data is power, and it's attractive. So I'm just wondering how you see this data being used primarily.
[00:14:52] Speaker E: Yeah, let me just mention briefly how it was developed, because that'll tie. That'll help answer the question there. So in both the degree granting institution study where we came up with the 1600 institutions and 3800 colleges, and the GME study with its 1600 different programs, we did a five part study, five part steps, and the first was to design the program and beta test it. The second was a extensive individual, one country at a time, artificial intelligence, which is sometimes artificial unintelligence search.
In the midst of each one.
In the midst of each one of those searches, though, when we would then go to that program once it was identified or that college once it was identified and begin to look to verify that it was something Christian, we were looking to see who they were connected with or who was accrediting them or what associations they belonged to. And we developed a separate list as we were doing each country's review or each program's review.
And so the third step then was to go back to those lists and say it was an association, say it was PACs. We noticed that they were part of PACs. We would go to the PACS website and say, who else does PACs have listed? So that was a way to sort of cross check what was going on and find additional places there. That took us to a point where we had a list and we could begin to share it for what we call the friend sourcing stage.
That's an ongoing stage where we're asking people who are actually in the country or maybe even have been to that particular institution to look at the database and tell us what's wrong. And that's also then the way for the fifth step. We have what we're calling curated maintenance. In other words, this isn't like Wikipedia where somebody out there says, I think this and plugs it in and we end up with stuff we don't know is in there and so curated. In other words, we're asking folks to contact CCIH and let them know of a change that they see or something should be added or subtracted, or a new school or a new program as a way to keep the database updated.
[00:17:08] Speaker B: And then part two of that question, maybe you could spend a whole podcast answering that question about how you see the data being used. And the 2020 discussion about mapping all these was about resources and figuring out how to get resources to the LMICs. But just maybe one or two critical ways. You see this data right now being used.
[00:17:30] Speaker E: Yeah. So we as a small representation of the church, us on the call, us listening in on this podcast, us, the church worldwide should be using something like this so that we can be strategic in addressing building God's kingdom.
So we should be in a position where we can say as a church universal, this is a place we should be investing our time and adding in more Christian healers so that we can be sort of think strategically and act locally, which you hear often.
[00:18:04] Speaker C: Yeah, I love the pictures that you have on the studies because I'm a very visual learner and I can look at the maps and say, okay, this area of Africa really has a lot more programs that I should invest with. Oh my goodness. You know, this area does not. I've always wanted to go to an area that has less. This is a visual picture that otherwise was not available. So we really appreciate what you guys have done.
[00:18:28] Speaker E: Thanks. And as Ron pointed out, I want to add, this ought to hurt every one of us that there are 80 lower and middle income countries. I think we identified about 130 lower middle income countries, but 80 lower middle income countries that have at least in our database we've discovered no Christian graduate medical education. That's not acceptable, you guys.
[00:18:53] Speaker C: No, it's not.
So let me ask this. When you think about GME and programs, you know, like you said, it's not acceptable not to have any programs. Can you give us an idea about the GME programs? What fields you looked at? Which ones might have subspecialties versus primary care and what should we learn from this study?
[00:19:15] Speaker E: Yeah, it's a deep question.
Depending on how you split what the names are, different parts of the world are calling different things that are done, different specialties on the medicine side, on the GME side. And we ended up breaking it down to I think it was around 90 ron. But it was our own definite. Sometimes we'd have to group together, you know, any. But the most frequent ones are general surgery, pediatrics, internal medicine, OB gyn, family medicine, anesthesiology. But there's about anything you can think of out there in that database from the lower middle income countries.
[00:19:57] Speaker C: So I would love to figure out how to mobilize and really motivate CMDA volunteers, cmda, even the people that aren't necessarily members but really engaged.
What would you tell them? What would you say? Because a lot of times I'll hear something like, well, I'm not an academician so I can't really do anything. But what would you communicate to those listeners?
[00:20:19] Speaker E: I would say, hey, you ought to be talking to God and God has a purpose for each one of us.
And if God's leading you someplace, you ought to be connecting with CMDA and saying, where's the need? This is what God has put on my heart. How can that be used by CMDA and their outreach?
[00:20:37] Speaker D: I think I'd just like to add something too, Mike and John. I took a trip through mei, through cmda to Albania and did some great specialty training there for the students. But what I noticed was a real lack of hands on diagnostic physical exam experience.
So I think if people want to contribute on that level is get out to the field and teach them just basic diagnostic skills.
These students can answer any question on an exam pretty close to being 100%, 90% at least. But they did not understand physical examination. And I think even having the tools, I think for a class, I think of 100 they had like five diagnostic sets, otoscopes and ophthalmoscopes and it was very foreign to them to even look in someone's ear.
So I think if anybody wants to volunteer, I think those are great, great opportunities to bring some real skills to them that they need.
[00:21:39] Speaker A: Before we continue with this week's episode, here's a special announcement for you.
Join us for CMDA's 43rd Annual West Coast Winter Conference in beautiful Cannon Beach, Oregon.
Enjoy teaching for Christian healthcare professionals, worship and fellowship, plus a wonderful children's program and time to explore the coast.
[email protected] events.
You asked for them. They're coming back. For the fourth year in a row, Shine from Liberty University will lead worship at the 2027 CMDA National Convention.
Their incredible harmonies and powerful gospel centered music have made them a favorite of the CMDA family and we're thrilled to welcome them back in 2027.
This year we'll gather at the table making room for worship, community encouragement and connection.
And we can't imagine a better group to help us do it. Shine is back, so let's gather at the table.
Register at natcon.cmda.org.
Let's jump right back into this week's episode.
[00:23:05] Speaker B: You know Ron and Gary, earlier, I appreciate you talking about PACs. I was a PACS faculty at Timock Hospital for over a decade and fantastic experience and you were right. They have done such a good job of refining how to integrate spiritual curriculum within surgical training, whatever the specialty and so my next question is a little bit tongue in cheek, honestly, because I have shared with the PACS commission in Chicago from time to time to say, hey, if you don't actually regularly do spiritual integration within your practice, please don't go and taint or corrupt those residents over there because we're so secularized. And so to find people in the academic environment like John Pierce or maybe like one of you guys is rare.
So I'm going to ask you, how can those listening who are from more of a teaching environment help some of these programs in the LMICs, wherever they are, to do a better job integrating spiritual care with whatever their specialty is or maybe are there opportunities to go and learn how it's done? Well, I guess that's the tongue in cheek part. Maybe some of us on this side can go learn how it's done well because we haven't seen it on our side.
[00:24:22] Speaker D: Yeah, I agree with you, Mike, and you mentioned PACs. And you know, I always go to theirs because I learned the most about what that integration piece looks like. You know, you know the facts of this. Well, but you know, their five year surgical and discipleship program blew me away when I went in and I started digging into these. They have a different book every year, different color. There's 20 to 30 lessons about spiritual development. And that really captured me to think this is a framework that I think would really work. And we've been using that to make a lot of our work, at least for ccah.
But I love their comprehensive approach about teaching biblical studies and theology, Christian ethics and worldview. And really practically what does this look like once you get out and you're trained as a surgeon, but all the way from preaching to church planning was in there. And so I think that's the ultimate of comprehensive approach.
Now your question is how can people contribute to that stateside, maybe going abroad?
PACS has a great short term and long term program. If you want to be involved so you can go and be a mentor, you can model what that looks like to integrate to these residents.
I think that is a great opportunity and God may be leading you to either short or long term missions in that respect.
So I think that's one big one. I also love the pacts program because they also use the CMDA sailing process. Training of how do you take a spiritual history, how do you share your faith? And I did that as a medical student when they used to call it the saline solution. And that is critical. So I think that combination of understanding the resources but also going yourself to do that, you can also give of your time, you can go short time, you can give resources many different ways to be involved.
[00:26:13] Speaker C: That's very helpful. And I still, you know, I love the way Gary, you said it. Ask God and he will tell you. I'll never forget, you know, one of the early times coming back after just a short term mission for me. Oh my goodness, God, teach me. What do you want me to say? Or what do you want me to learn? And the answer was, John, you're a hypocrite.
You know, you go abroad and you're going to teach, you know, with this mission and you come back here and you don't share Christ with your own patients. That's called a hypocrite. Yeah,
[00:26:40] Speaker B: dissociation.
[00:26:41] Speaker C: And so that set me on the track to, you know, early on with faith prescriptions and then, you know, sailing process now. Okay, how do I really teach others what they ought to do to be healthy? That's the old John Patrick line. And he really taught, you know, and most of what we do is not rocket science, it's how do you really live well and when that's there and you follow God's design, life goes better. And therefore as physicians, we have less to do.
Let me ask another question because when you look at this data, it's very interesting. When you look at denominations and you look at leadership, what did you guys learn about that? And what should we take away from the data that you've already provided?
[00:27:26] Speaker E: Yeah, maybe a few things to share there. On the degree granting institution study, we figured out that about 49% of the institutions were Catholic, 43% were Protestant and the rest were interfaith and or orthodox institutions.
On the GME study, which was only in lower middle income countries, and we were looking at programs, about 58% of the programs or the residencies were Catholic, about 38% Protestant and about 4% Orthodox in interfaith.
You know, this, this pains me a little bit, guys. We're talking about his church like it's a whole bunch of different churches. The reason we're talking about it that way is that is how the Christians have acted since Christ left. And Christ was pretty upset, pretty concerned that that might happen when he left. And indeed it has happened. So the bigger question I think for all of us is what are we doing to bring his church together?
I really dislike the thought of getting to heaven and having Christ say for, you know, for that reason, for that reason you broke relationship with your brother. You know, so Ron and I deeply believe that healthcare is an opportunity, a rallying point around which his church can begin to agree, begin to love one another and do what Christ had asked us to do. So I think unity is one of the things that we've learned and could learn here in doing this.
[00:29:09] Speaker C: That's so well said
[00:29:10] Speaker E: within that I would encourage these institutions to hold themselves accountable to a church. So it's hard to say this is a place for the church to come together, but let's start. You know, even though this is a fractured church in our world right now, an institution, if we truly believe in the theology of health, we truly believe that health care is responsibility of his church, then institutions ought to be holding themselves accountable locally to a church. And I think that would have helped for the massive number of mostly Protestant organizations we saw whose, whose faith had grown cold in the hundred years or 70 years or 120 years since their institution was created. I think that would have helped a lot if those institutions would have held themselves accountable to a church which would have brought them back into the folder or corrected them as they, you know, slowly wandered away until you cannot even find on their website something about Christ. By the way, we didn't include those in the database if they, if they, if they weren't willing to talk about Christ, we weren't willing to stick them in the database. But if you think back about the universities around the world, especially in the west, how many of them were started with a missions focused, started by missionaries, started by pastors, and no longer have anything to do with Christ, then you can see this is a real problem we need to buttress against.
[00:30:39] Speaker B: I know that at least during the time I was in Kenya, stats would vary just a little bit. But the amount of care being provided by NGOs, primarily Christian churches and missions, was somewhere between 30 and 50%, rising as high as 60%. And that was in a more developed East African country.
So Most of these LMICs, I would guess that a significant proportion of their care is coming from church based, faith based sorts of care in the LMICs. So to hear that there are 80 some countries with none of these training programs is like you said earlier is just startling. And so when we're done with this conversation, I'm going to get, I want to see the list of the LMICs that don't have a single one of these training programs. But my question is this guys. How does your data and the map that John, you were talking about earlier help us be more strategic with this incredible platform of medicine and other healthcare provision to take the gospel where it ain't right now, if you'll excuse my Indiana colloquialism.
[00:31:45] Speaker D: Yeah, I think a great challenge for us all, Mike and John, you know, I think basically this mapping consortium and work really delineates where there are and where there aren't, as you just mentioned, programs. And I think to prayerfully consider what God would have us to do about that, to be strategic, to contribute either to the areas that there aren't any, but also to look at where there's a concentration and to go and learn from them. What are your best practices? How do you approach this? How do you start a program?
How do you keep it going? How do you integrate the spiritual aspects as well as the clinical and take that to those countries that don't have anything? I think it's a real call for us. And as Gary mentioned, how do we team up with the local denomination, Christian denomination, to really work together? We saw this, we took a trip to Ghana, we went to 10 different organizations and we saw how that was integrated into their work. And these were. A lot of these were Catholic, Seventh Day Adventists and some Protestant groups. But they either took the pastor, priest or someone along with them to home visits, which I think was great, where they would come together and they would team up to care for people in their homes and meeting them where they were. But they truly lived out that integration piece. And I think the students were able to see how their faith is integrated on a daily basis.
So I think as we volunteer and we do things like that, I think we need to be strategic of taking the information we know where there's a lack of training programs, but also where's the concentration of them and where can we learn and collaborate with those countries that don't have much going on? I think that's one of our charges that we saw in the health center world is how do you help lower, smaller, having difficulties, problems, health centers as well as countries now, how do we go and help them when they're under resourced, both with faculty training programs and resources? How can we help them in a practical sense?
[00:33:46] Speaker C: Got it. When you talk about that, Ron, can you elaborate a little bit more? I mean, we're talking about examples of real partnerships of collaboration so that volunteers, CMDA members can go and then partner with. Give us some clarity, give us more examples about what you would recommend.
[00:34:05] Speaker D: We saw this, as I mentioned, Gary and I spent some time in Ghana and they have.
The Christian Health association of Ghana or CHAG has figured out this integration piece and they have really Developed an approach that I think is impactful.
So they have figured out how on the front lines to bring the training together for both the spiritual formation, maturity and clinical training. But also they've gone higher. They've worked with the ministry of health, they actually helped to write the health plan for the country and now they take care of a third of the country. So out of 36 million people, these faith based organizations take care of 12 million of them. So I think the input of others can be on multiple levels. It can be on the direct training, but also, and this is where Gary and I have come in more on the development strategy. Strategy side is at different levels of how do you work with the government, how do you work with local agencies, maybe at the regional level to really bring forward this integration and show the value of faith based organizations. That's what CHAG has done a very good job at. In fact, they've launched into a whole quality improvement program where they're collecting data from the front lines, not only in clinical outcomes, but what are the spiritual aspects of what they're doing in these communities.
And the government has loved what they're doing because they have close ties and have built relationships over the years with the Ministry of health and they have gained their confidence and they have the results to show that they're getting good clinical outcomes from surgeries, primary care across the board. And so there's a combination of the statistical outcomes but also the financial outcomes. And so they understand what's important to the community, government. So my answer is you can go at multiple levels if you want to be involved. Primary care training, surgical specialty care training, but also those people that have some experience on higher levels of dealing with governmental agencies and knowing how to have those conversations to understand what they need out of these healthcare organizations and how to fulfill those needs so that there's a win for everybody. And you have that integration of the government, ministry of health as well as faith based organizations. So Gary, if you want to add a thing to that too, what we learned,
[00:36:26] Speaker E: we asked them how it was that they were being so successful and how there could be the kind of unity that we were seeing in their country. And they said it really, it started with tragedy in the country and the churches getting together and I mean the whole church, his church getting together and saying we are going to go to our knees, we are going to prayer. And I believe it's once a month where they still have nationwide church across, coordinated across the various Catholic, Protestant and I'm not sure if there's orthodox There coordinated across that they went to prayer and that was the basis for their unity and how well they work together across the disciplines, across the different denominations I guess we call them. I think there's a lot to be learned there. Let's start with prayer.
[00:37:12] Speaker C: Yeah. And I would say too, we are praying for more CMDA members to really engage, to really get on their knees on their own, but then to respond so that we can change.
[00:37:26] Speaker B: And they don't need to be members to respond to this. Anyone, any Christian healthcare professional who's listening or a friend or a family member.
[00:37:34] Speaker C: And that so includes, you know, we can't do anything without our nurses, our nurse practitioners, otpt, speech therapy, you name it. And then I'd say also there's an incredible need, you know, I don't know of the data that you guys have looked at, but there's an incredible need to have administrative leaders, leader developers to go in to be able to help institutions so they can run effectively. And I know that your next, you know, endeavor, okay, how do we assess quality? You probably got an additional 1500 hours of work to try to assess all that, but that's a large part. So any way that people can contribute, there really is a lot of work to be done.
[00:38:16] Speaker D: I think the other thing to emphasize is Gary and I are towards the last part of our careers and God has given a lot of us experience at different levels. So I think the clinical part is critical and important. But also people of God has put us in positions of administration, of working with governments, whether that be state, regional or federal. And I think those experiences are really important for countries to figure out if we can understand the nuances of a different culture and respect that, but also work with them to bring those conversations forward. That maybe what we've learned from Ghana is how do you bring the data forward, considering all the cultural applications and considerations to in a tactful and respectful way, bring this to the government.
That's where you can bring sustainability. Also is that group in Chad, in Ghana has great sustainability because they have the government backing. So they found the balance of not giving in to where they wanted to push them to be more secular. And they're standing on the ground and saying, no, this is a faith based group and this is the way we practice medicine. And then they back it up with the data to show that they're getting great clinical outcomes on cost as well, saving the government money.
So I think God has called us and many of us have so much experience in these areas that we don't even think about, because we're clinicians, we need to think about these other ways that we can help out. And that's why Gary and I kind of got into this is because it needs more development.
We need people to be involved in development missions.
[00:39:53] Speaker B: Ron or Gary, what does your gut, or better yet your brain tell you about how comprehensive and how complete do you think this mapping project for the countries where you, the 111 or however many there are, where you have these training sites for Christian healthcare workers?
And that's my first question. And then part two is this has had to garner a ton of attention.
Maybe it's not World bank, but there have got to be some entities internationally that are interested in this data.
Has anyone said we want to pour even more resources into this project because we want to make it even stronger and capture 99.99% of the places in these LMICs.
[00:40:42] Speaker E: Well, sure would love it if CMBA would say that it's what, 40,000 members,
[00:40:47] Speaker B: not quite that many. International, yes, but maybe not us. But yet
[00:40:51] Speaker E: look at this and tell us where it's inaccurate. Inaccurate and help keep it updated. As John pointed out, you know, it was outdated the moment it was put out and it was, you know, it needs correction. It needs to be a living document for us to continue to use it.
[00:41:10] Speaker B: I just got to believe this attracts, I mean data again is influence its power, it's making a difference. And so I would think there would be some big players that'd be interested in taking this some more steps.
[00:41:21] Speaker C: We've talked a little bit about this, but how do you work with a country like Ghana and look at grants foundations in particular countries where the needs are great and partner like you guys have stressed with the local churches, with the local organizations, with the government and then bring the expertise that people, especially Christian healthcare workers possess with a heart to go and serve that can make a massive difference. So there are so many ways that we should be engaging any Christian healthcare worker. And so I just want to put a plug in, you know, whether you're looking at educating through medical education International, you're looking at doing something like through check if you're an executive or leadership development skills or if you're a young practitioner and oh my goodness, how do I get involved in that? That changed my life.
And you know, you had a different experience. Mike and I know Ron and Gary, you guys the same way. But to be able to see God work and to really have that perspective about what is real health, it begins with my relationship with the Lord and Then after that, if that goes well, it's easier to do it horizontally with my spouse, Nicole or other people and then take care of others. But if we get that mixed up, it is much harder to live life and to live it well.
[00:42:40] Speaker E: Amen. And I'm sorry I keep hitting back on a theme here, but I think it's going to be hard to go to. It is often hard to go to leadership in a country and talk about the great things that we are going to do as Christians when there's other Christians saying, well, we're the real Christians, they're not really Christians. And so he. So unity becomes an important way that we can work with many governments, certainly not all governments.
[00:43:07] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you are poster.
[00:43:09] Speaker E: That's an important one.
[00:43:10] Speaker B: You're poster professionals for how I wanted to close. I thought I'd close this program today, which is the whole piece of collaboration. This program's coming out before our annual Healthcare Mission Summit that medsend and CMD have been partnering together to put on just before the Louisville conference. I think you gentlemen have probably been there for part of that, one of those in the past.
I have to be honest with you gentlemen. Six years ago, when we had this meeting with Peter Saunders from ICMDA and Alma golden at usaid, I just thought, this is overwhelming.
How could this be done? But you've demonstrated that together, multiple organizations, this consortium, that such work can be done and it overcomes some inertia and with some momentum. Like I say, I wouldn't be surprised if there are some organizations out there, even secular ones, that would really like to help make this even more robust, this mapping project. And so thank you for your investment in this and for the whole push today. Dr. Pierce of We Collaborate Together. We're going to have a few sessions on collaboration at this year's summit. In fact, I think. Isn't that the theme?
[00:44:21] Speaker C: Yes.
And Guy, I would love. If you guys have anything else. You know, Gary, you talked about getting on your knees, but what's going to motivate people all of a sudden to respond? What do they do differently? Okay, I'm on my knees. What else would you say to them?
[00:44:37] Speaker D: Going back to what was said earlier, Gary said is, what are your gifts that God has given you and your experiences? That would be the starting point. I would say, on your knees, say, God, what have you brought me through and how can I be used of this? And then you start asking. That's what we ended up doing. We contacted a bunch of organizations. We met with people we're still doing that and saying, look, if you had some volunteer help, what would you need done? Here's our skill set and how can we help? We just talked to a group in Cameroon and they said we need some help training our people administratively, we need some leadership development, we need some strategy. And I think there are skills that we don't even think about using in the medical field that God can use. So I would say pray specifically and say, God, you've blessed me with this great career where I've got to experience this and that working in the state, regional or federal level, and how can I use this to forward the gospel and to broaden the impact of the gospel? I think that's the starting point. And then just start praying and get out there and get involved and see where God leads you. But I think we just pray through every one of our contacts and ask God lead us. If this is something you want us to do, we'll pursue it. If not, let us know.
And so that's kind of been our approach, which I think has been fruitful to this point. Gary?
[00:45:58] Speaker E: Yeah, maybe I'll add just a little bit to it. So foundationally it needs to be about what God has asked us to do. If God has asked you to do something, you better do it. Let's start there.
But a good question to ask yourself after that is, you know, where is the need and what is my skill set? Those are not mandatory. Right. So Moses didn't have a skill set to do what he did. Right. But God called him and he needed to follow through. But it wouldn't hurt to ask what is my skill set and where are their needs? But certainly go where God's calling you. And
[00:46:32] Speaker C: yeah, well said.
[00:46:33] Speaker B: I think in Samuel, the battle belongs to the Lord. And I've been thinking recently, John, that the bio belongs to the Lord as well.
Well, thanks for joining us today, Dr. Rony and Dr. Gary Cloud.
It's been a delight and maybe there'll be a follow up conversation in a year or two to see where this has gone.
And just delighted with the work of CCIH and ICMDA and the others on the list of this consortium that worked together on this mapping project. So God bless you and maybe we'll see you at GMHC in a couple, three months and can't wait till we get to shake hands in person.
[00:47:13] Speaker C: And I thank you guys for your faithfulness and your obedience, your response to the Lord. It's really impressive to see. Thank you.
[00:47:20] Speaker D: Thank you so much.
[00:47:22] Speaker E: Pleasure, guys.
[00:47:33] Speaker B: My thanks to Dr. Ron Yee and Dr. Gary Cloud as well as Dr. John Pierce for joining me today.
One finding from this conversation is going to stay with me, and that is Ron and Gary's research identified about 80 lower and middle income countries with no Christian graduate medical education programs at all. As Gary put it, that's just not acceptable.
The good news is that responding doesn't require being an academic of any kind.
Ron and Gary simply went to organizations and said, hey, here's our skill set. How can we help?
For some of us, that may lead to teaching hands on exam skills to students. For others it may mean helping an institution develop its leaders or strengthen its operations.
And wherever we go, we can come ready to learn as well as to teach.
Consider bringing that same question before the Lord and asking where your training and your experience could make the greatest difference. Friends, to explore the mapping project that we discussed Today, just visit ccih.org if you've trained or worked at one of these institutions, take a look and let CCIH know what's missing or out of date for that particular location and institution. You can also learn about CMDA's wide array of serving through mission opportunities by going to CMDA.org today.
Next week my guest using the name Dr. Christian to protect his identity. He's going to share his journey from a communist youth leader to a follower of Christ and how God is using his patient care to open doors for the Gospel even amid opposition.
I want to thank you for listening to Faith in Healthcare Today where our promise to you as a listener or better yet, a subscriber to this this podcast is this. We will do everything that we can to keep your faith and your health care intimately connected.
We'll see you next time, Lord willing, on Faith and Healthcare.
[00:49:53] Speaker A: Thanks for listening to Faith in Healthcare, the CMDA Matters podcast. If you would like to suggest a future guest or share a comment with us, please email cmdamattersmda.org and if you like the podcast, be sure to give us a five star rating and share it on your favorite social media platform.
This podcast has been a production of Christian Medical and Dental Associations.
The opinions expressed by guests on this podcast are not necessarily endorsed by Christian Medical and Dental Associations.
CMDA is a non partisan organization that does not endorse political parties or candidates for public office.
The views expressed on this podcast reflect judgments regarding principles and values held by CMDA and its members and are not intended to imply endorsement of any political party or candidate.
